(la) Telanu ([info]somniesperus) wrote,
2003-08-13 22:18:00
  • Mood: tired
  • Music: Lil Kim with 50 Cent: Magic Stick
Tonight I was watching a BBC production of Julius Caesar with a friend, and a passage from Act 1 reminded me (of course!) of Snape:

CAESAR: ...He reads much,
He is a great observer, and he looks
Quite through the deeds of men. He loves no plays,
As thou dost, Antony; he hears no music.
Seldom he smiles, and smiles in such a sort
As if he mocked himself, and scorned his spirit
That could be moved to smile at anything.
Such men as he be never at heart's ease
Whiles they behold a greater than themselves,
And therefore are they very dangerous.

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  • 19 comments

[info]arborwin

August 13 2003, 19:21:13 UTC 8 years ago

that description of Cassius is one of my favorites.

[info]somniesperus

August 13 2003, 19:28:00 UTC 8 years ago

I love your Snape icon -- where does the original illustration come from?

[info]arborwin

August 13 2003, 21:37:15 UTC 8 years ago

I drew it, here's the original :)

[info]arborwin

August 13 2003, 22:21:10 UTC 8 years ago

Oh! and thank you, I'm so flattered that you like it. ^_^

[info]somniesperus

August 16 2003, 07:55:25 UTC 8 years ago

Ack! I am replying late :-( I love that picture. Snape looks very reminiscent of Neil Gaiman's Dream. <3 Thank you for sharing it!

[info]ex_eleemosyn877

August 13 2003, 19:23:21 UTC 8 years ago

Snape definitely has Cassius's "lean and hungry look". :-*

[info]somniesperus

August 13 2003, 19:26:57 UTC 8 years ago

Yes! I don't know that he has Cassius' initiative -- Snape doesn't seem the sort to instigate the revolution, even from behind the scenes -- but they both seem plagued with a deep, essential unrest, and there is a kind of "wild" element in both their natures, IMO. And, of course, they both have the emotional maturity of five-year-olds.

Haha, caveat: I am not really all that familiar with the play, so my penetrative analysis stops here!

[info]ex_eleemosyn877

August 13 2003, 21:29:35 UTC 8 years ago

I don't know--he seemed to be driven to acts of very elaborate malice towards Sirius in PoA. I mean, that was a fair bit of time and energy he devoted to exposing and destroying him.

In that way, come to think of it, Snape in PoA is less like Cassius than like Mark Antony following Caesar's murder.

Sorry to drone on in your LJ about material you haven't read, Telanu, but I'm sort of enjoying the analogy. #^_^# You should read it if you ever have the time...it's so fucking bold and exciting! There are these great, sweeping oratories...Rome. Yum.

[info]cursive

August 13 2003, 20:27:09 UTC 8 years ago

In some respects, yes, this is really apt. Do you think though that the jealousy of anyone greater than himself is really true of Snape? It seems to me that's really the defining feature of Cassius and to be a misreading of Snape, though an easy one to make. I'm sure Sirius thinks Snape is jealous of the Marauders and he may have a point, but I doubt it's for the reasons he thinks or an aspect of Snape's nature itself. Really worth thinking about though, thanks.

[info]somniesperus

August 13 2003, 20:35:08 UTC 8 years ago

*points at caveat above* My familiarity with the play is only passing, so I can't really comment on Snape-within-the-context-of Cassius. I was kind of using the quote out of context, actually *G*

And I did think about that. There is a lot of jealousy in Snape, I think, but a lot of that is probably frustration at himself as well, for getting himself stuck where he is. There is a broad streak of servility as well that I am sure he would like to deny. I imagine that he has very mixed reactions to figures like Dumbledore and Voldemort -- wariness, respect, the urge to follow and yet the desire to be on his own. I don't really think he knows *how* to be on his own.

[info]cursive

August 13 2003, 20:45:33 UTC 8 years ago

Yes, I have thought there is a strange slant of dependence in Snape, and it's interesting to guess about that, because he clearly fights against it all the time. Snape's probable thoughts/feelings about Dumbledore fascinate me too, and I think those responses are most interesting of all when seen in counterpoint to the people that Snape does seem jealous of -- Sirius in particular.

I see lots of fanfic representations of Severus as a jealous person, though, and I'm not sure I see that. I certainly don't see it in his apparent resentment of Harry, although lots of readers clearly do.

[info]somniesperus

August 13 2003, 21:13:57 UTC 8 years ago

Perhaps "jealous" is the wrong word to use, because when it comes to Snape I have started to associate that almost exclusively with romantic or sexual jealousy (which I can see very clearly in his case ;) "Envious" might be better, although it may be pure semantics. I can see that as well. Snape is awkward, ugly, stuck in a place he doesn't like (and probably hated being there while he was a student as well, if that Pensieve memory is a good indicator), nobody likes *him,* and he doesn't get the respect that he seems to crave (partly because he has no idea how to properly earn someone's respect). I don't know that he envies Sirius -- he seems intent on lording it over him in OotP as a sort of reparation for past wrongs -- but I can see him envying figures like Dumbledore, Voldemort, and even Harry, sometime in the future, when Harry assumes more power and authority, as I think he will.

"Responsibility without power -- the prerogative of the eunuch throughout the ages." -Sir Humphrey Appleby, "Yes Prime Minister"

[info]ex_eleemosyn877

August 13 2003, 22:00:20 UTC 8 years ago

I do see Snape as a fundamentally, almost indiscriminately, jealous person. I see a lot of verbal cues in his scornful, obsessive references to Harry's (and James's) fame and popularity, especially taken in conjunction with his reaction to the loss of his potential Order of Merlin in PoA.

You don't have to respect a person to envy him. I think this distinction is an important one in his relationship to Sirius--a boy who not only possessed all the personal charms Snape lacked, but came from a pureblooded family whose standing and comparative glamour he probably coveted. I mean, look at our glimpses into Snape's upbringing in OotP. Jesus, how miserable. And Sirius had the gall to openly spurn his own people, the ungrateful prick? >:D< The Blacks probably looked like the Partridge Family to Snape.

[info]cursive

August 13 2003, 23:11:50 UTC 8 years ago

There's more than a purely semantic distinction between jealous and envious, I think. One is more about protecting the self, however fearfully, and the other more about wanting to or wishing one could in some sense emulate another or have what another has. So I think both are relevant to Snape, but I'd pick him as rather more jealous than envious, now I think about it in those terms. I guess it depends on how satisfied with himself one sees Snape as being.

[info]blackletter

August 24 2003, 17:06:09 UTC 8 years ago

Eunuchs and Power

This is rather off the topic at hand, but I just wanted to say that I loved your parting quote. I'm going to have to look up the piece from which it came and get the whole context. (Currently working on a thesis paper on ancient eunuchs...)

[info]pauraque

August 14 2003, 12:30:17 UTC 8 years ago

There is a broad streak of servility as well that I am sure he would like to deny. I imagine that he has very mixed reactions to figures like Dumbledore and Voldemort -- wariness, respect, the urge to follow and yet the desire to be on his own. I don't really think he knows *how* to be on his own.

This is an excellent point, and not one that I'd heard articulated before. It makes quite a bit of sense with how I see Snape. I've been writing up some thoughts on the parallels between Snape and Peter Pettigrew (which are many), and now you've pointed out yet another. Peter is more obviously a follower, but I think it's for the same reason -- he's never established a good sense of himself as an independent adult.

[info]neotoma

August 15 2003, 07:48:06 UTC 8 years ago

is a broad streak of servility as well that I am sure he would like to deny.

I think he'd call it 'loyalty', but you're right. Severus is not a leader, but he's also not a sheep. His personality breaks down to 'loyal retainer', the sort who in fairy tales is always spiriting the crown prince out of the castle before the barbarians invade.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure he's aware of how deep his need to be valued and needed is. Voldemort and Dumbledore both are aware of and willing to use Snape's tendency to serve. Sadly, neither of them has much loyalty *back*; the Wizarding world doesn't seem to have the idea of 'fealty', with its *reciprocal* loyalty, down yet.

[info]pauraque

August 14 2003, 09:46:52 UTC 8 years ago

I love that speech in JC, and I can see how it would remind you of Snape. I do think Snape had some of the hungry jealousy that marks Cassius, particularly as a younger man (jealousy of MWPP, perhaps resentment of rich purebloods, depending on how you view the character). He also shares Cassius' tendency to bottle things up and then suddenly lash out when something pushes his buttons. Cassius' frustration with Brutus' carefully modulated responses reminds me of Snape's similar frustration with Dumbledore.

As it happens, JC is one of my favorite plays. I recently posted some analysis of it to my LJ here, which doesn't touch on HP directly, but you can see if you find any other parallels.

By the way, Telanu, I'm a big fan of your fic! I owe you some major feedback.

[info]somniesperus

August 14 2003, 13:37:11 UTC 8 years ago

He also shares Cassius' tendency to bottle things up and then suddenly lash out when something pushes his buttons.

As I've said, my knowledge of the play is woefully inadequate, but I agree with you that this is definitely one of Snape's most prominent (or at least interesting) characteristics.

By the way, Telanu, I'm a big fan of your fic! I owe you some major feedback.

Oh, thank you! :-) And thoughtful discussion is every bit as welcome, I promise! This is fun.
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